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The Nathaniel Veltman murder trial resumed Friday morning with a mid-trial instruction from Justice Renee Pomerance.
She reminded the jury that forensic psychiatrist Dr. Julien Gojer has testified "from time to time about what the accused was thinking at the time of the offences," but that he has no direct knowledge of Veltman's thoughts.
She also told the jury that they are the ones to decide how much weight to attach to Dr. Gojer's testimony when they make their ultimate decision in the case.
Defence lawyer Christopher Hicks opened by asking about Veltman's mental disorders and if they could have impacted his ability to plan to hurt or kill someone or his "ability to foresee the consequences of his actions."
Gojer responded affirmatively to both questions. He said that Veltman's ability to plan could have been affected "in both directions" and his ability to think about consequences would have been affected "based on his descriptions of having trouble perceiving reality."
The defence then turned the witness over to the prosecution for cross-examination.
Assistant Crown attorney Jennifer Moser began by asking about the differences between Gojer's assessment of Veltman and his testimony in court.
Gojer replied that his report didn't take into account Veltman's own testimony.
Moser then pointed out that the doctor's report did not find Veltman 'Not Criminally Responsible' (NCR) by way of mental disorder.
"My position remains the same," Gojer said of Veltman's criminal responsibility. He added that person who uses that defence cannot understand the "legal or moral wrongness" of their actions and that Veltman does not meet that threshold.
Moser then asked why Gojer had not told the jury that his opinion changed following Veltman's testimony and why he hadn't mentioned that Veltman has given a number of varying accounts.
She noted that in his first interview with police and his first meeting with Gojer, Veltman said he "felt like he was going to war" and that he left his apartment on June 6, 2021 with the thoughts of killing Muslims.
This is drastically different than what he said on the stand, which was that he was going out for food that night and that when he spotted the Azfaal family he was overcome by "the urge to step on the gas."
Gojer conceded that he did hear differing accounts from Veltman and that he left room for that by prefacing his answers with phrases like "one explanation is." He stood by his answers saying "it's all in how the questions were framed."
Moser disagreed. "This was you, Dr. Gojer, choosing to pick one of the versions, the latest version, that Mr. Veltman gave you," she said.
Gojer denied that.
The Crown then turned to the consumption of psilocybin (magic mushrooms).
Dr. Gojer told the jury that he based his opinion about Veltman suffering from withdrawal effects of the mushrooms about 40 hours after the high wore off on numerous research papers, articles in medical journals, and his own experience with patients.
Moser countered that the literature he provided were about SSRI drugs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor drugs) not psilocybin.
Gojer replied that he could extrapolate the findings about SSRI withdrawal and apply it to psilocybin.
Moser asked the doctor if he would ever prescribe psilocybin to a patient in place of an SSRI.
"I don't prescribe mushrooms because they are still in the experimental stage," Gojer replied.
Moser than turned to another piece of literature provided by Gojer, saying it couldn't possibly be used as an accurate source of information as it was an online survey completed by nearly 1,400 people asking about their "worst mushroom trip ever." She added that of all of the responses only three reported anything close to Veltman's reaction. Further to that, only one mentioned the word "depersonalized" and that response came from a person later diagnosed with schizophrenia.
Gojer agreed with the fact that there was no way to tell if the respondents' answers were true, but stood by the research as sound.
Moser then asked Gojer about psychosis.
Gojer said that he believes that if Veltman's mental health remained unchecked and he had continued to use drugs he could have developed a disorder as severe as schizophrenia, but at the time of the attack on the Afzaal family there was absolutely no evidence of Veltman suffering from a psychotic episode.
Moser also questioned Gojer about Veltman's OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) diagnosis.
She suggested to Gojer that people can do things for hours at a time because they enjoy it or because they want to master a craft, not because they have OCD. He agreed.
She then suggested that Veltman could have spent hours consuming internet content because he wanted to. She added that his reported behaviour during his arrest of laughing, smiling, and telling someone to "take a video" and that spending a month crafting a manifesto suggests that he enjoyed it.
Gojer conceded that that is "one possibility."
Moser then returned to the inconsistencies in all of Veltman's statements.
She read part of Veltman's police interview with Detective Micah Bourdeau hours after the attack on June 6, in which he said he was "not under the influence of anything other than the comedown of mushrooms." She pointed out to the jury that there was no mention of feeling "depersonalized" or "derealized."
"That's a very different description than he gave you," she said to Gojer.
"I would agree with that," Gojer replied.
After a lunch break, Moser continued talking about Veltman's inconsistent statements.
She told the jury that Veltman told Dr. Gojer during an interview that his depression started to get better in January 2021, after he started consuming more extremist content. Which contradicts what he said on the witness stand about his steadily declining mental health.
Gojer confirmed that was true.
Moser said that in earlier meetings with Dr. Gojer, Veltman never talked about being in a dreamlike state before the killings. He never spoke about leaving his apartment on June 6 to get food. He never talked about changing his mind and turning away from the family at the last second. He also told the doctor that he had experienced fantasies of committing a violent act.
Moser said that by September 2023, these statements had all changed.
Gojer agreed to all of those statements.
Pomerance then gave a midtrial instruction to the jury, stating the the the comments made by Veltman to Gojer are not admissible for their truth. They are simply being used by the Crown to determine whether Veltman's testimony was inconsistent compared to what he told the doctor.
It's up to them to decide if the inconsistencies are significant and how much weight to give them when making their final decision.
Moser then brought up the fact that Veltman had denied Gojer access to his former counselling and health records. He also refused to allow Gojer to speak to his mother or siblings.
"So, the entire basis of his childhood complex trauma comes from words coming out of Nathaniel Veltman's mouth," Moser said.
Gojer agreed, noting that he was able to speak to his father, but that information didn't confirm or refute Veltman's claims.
Moser then asked about Veltman being tested for OCD at Royal Ottawa Hospital.
She noted that Veltman was on a very low dosage of Zoloft (25 mg) which is not strong enough to treat OCD and that he had not received any meaningful therapy in his recent past when he visited the hospital to be evaluated by Dr. Gojer and his staff.
Gojer agreed that was true.
Moser then asked if, during his month-long stay, Gojer or any of his staff observed any symptoms of OCD in Veltman.
"I did not detect any signs," Gojer confirmed.
Moser then challenged the doctor on Veltman's "severe depression" and Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) diagnoses.
Gojer said that Veltman working full-time hours, going fishing with friends, going off-roading with his brother, and purchasing and souping up his truck doesn't prove that he was not depressed. He also said that Veltman's ASD diagnosis falls more in line with Asperger's Syndrome than with Autism.
Court will resume at 2 p.m. on Monday.
Talat Afzaal, 74, her son Salman Afzaal, 46, his wife Madiha Salman, 44, and their daughter Yumnah, 15, were all killed when Veltman drove his truck into them during an evening walk. Salman and Madiha's son, who was nine at the time, was the only survivor of the collision.
Veltman has pleaded not guilty to four counts of first-degree murder, one count of attempted murder, and corresponding terrorism charges.